Curse

Gli · Aug 09, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

10k per hour.
WOW.WOW.WOW.WOW
You solved all of our problem.
Yipeeeee
Now we can earn incredible amound of golds in a hour
.....................
.....................
.....................
.....................
.....................
.....................
WhAt ThE hEcK?
Good old troll farm was 30k per hour or little less.

In case you didn't notice, this discussion isn't about being unable to make huge amounts of money per hour at little effort, but a few people claiming it's impossible to make money at all in a reasonable timeframe. I realize 10k per hour isn't oldschool top income, but it sure isn't 'nothing', which is why I posted my vermin example.

haggus71 · Aug 09, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

I wouldn't say I'm hard core, but I'm more than just casual. I never solo farm, yet never have a problem getting enough gold for the armor I want(considering how crappy most 15k armor looks) and the weapons I need. Elites? Just wait till I hit the area where I can get them. Till then I just make do. The game isn't THAT hard, after all.

I think you need to redefine "casual" player in some of your arguments. If you are worrying about how much "1337 1007" you are getting from chests/drops, and your gold drop per hour, you aren't a casual player. If you are using solo builds, you spent time researching for them and grinding to get the elites for them. Not casual.

It doesn't mean you are necessarily hardcore. But putting that kind of effort(it does take SOME effort to do those things) isn't casual. So let's kinda get straight what casual is before using the loot scale argument of casual vs hardcore. or maybe routine would be a better word?

TabascoSauce · Aug 09, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

If you are trying to actually pin down a definition of "casual" and "hardcore" gamers, then I'm here to say that a lot of research money from gaming companies has generated a lot of material written by a lot of smart people, and they cannot seem to find a common frame of reference to make a definition.

I mean, it is easy to quantify behaviors that are obviously "casual" or "hardcore" - but there is such a large grey area that players generally fall into, as opposed to some nice categories.

A casual gamer will complete a game once and do some quests....?
A hardcore gamer will complete a game 5 times, doing every possible quest....?

Sure.

People are not so clear cut. A player may play through a game only once, but do every quest. Still more casual?

I think a previous poster indicated that a casual gamer will simply play the game and enjoy it for what it is, while a hardcore gamer will "invest" him- or herself more thoroughly. A casual gamer will "meh" and sell fantastic loot. A hardcore gamer will whoop, dance, and carry on for joy. More specific behaviors, nice to describe the terms, but insufficient to define.

So, instead of trying to rigidly categorize and define (any aspect of) human behavior, why not approach it on a sliding scale. I see that tendency in here, with people saying variants of "I am mostly a casual player".

I'd like for this not to stop the discussion, since Lootscaling is becoming of increasing interest to me. I was originally in the "whatever - its more ANet tinkering that does not impact me", but as I play more I am finding that it has impacted me negatively.

Right now, I am trying to Hero/Hench Gate of Madness in NM, and you'd think that I would get some good loot there. That is not the case. I get 3 or 4 vendor trash, maybe 5-600 in gold drops, and maybe a purple. That is consistent for 5 tries now. I only get one shot at it a day - since it takes me somewhere near 30 or 40 minutes to clear up to the lich and shiro.

Normal play - what everyone seems to agree is a realm of the casual player - is not as profitable as before.

I hate farming, but I may be forced to do it to get more skills.

I understand that those of you who favor the change, feel that gold farmers are wrecking the economy. What I think your side fails to realize is that players like me do not participate in the player-to-player 100 plat + 20 ectos sector of the economy. Any cash I get goes right back out of circulation on skills, runes, and armors.

The other point that I have not seen anyone mention (apologies if I missed anything) is that making regular play more profitable will arguably not cause inflation since 1) farming is more profitable in units per time, so hardcore players will not benefit much from increased reward for regular play, and 2) casual players are at best opportunistic buyers from the player-to-player economy, and the bulk of the money they get goes right back out of circulation as I said before.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Omniclasm · Aug 09, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Tabasco, most people will probably agree that normal playing could use a slight buff to income.

I am quite for loot-scaling, but I say that normal playing, and farming could use atleast a 50-100% boost in profit.

Am very against solo-farming getting the 800% boost that people are pushing for though.

strcpy · Aug 09, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Right now, I am trying to Hero/Hench Gate of Madness in NM, and you'd think that I would get some good loot there. That is not the case. I get 3 or 4 vendor trash, maybe 5-600 in gold drops, and maybe a purple. That is consistent for 5 tries now. I only get one shot at it a day - since it takes me somewhere near 30 or 40 minutes to clear up to the lich and shiro.

Assuming that you are playing with 8 characters, not farming, then loot scaling hasn't changed anything for you. The drops only affect you as your party gets smaller and smaller until you are by yourself.

I don't recall ever getting much more than that either, except when I beat the mission and got the fixed rewards. Going through missions/quest where I didn't hit some strange snag (such as GoM) I averaged around 3-4k per hour - which if you hadn't of stalled out you would be going right along towards that average.

Loot scaling isn't the problem, the problem is that the highest end areas have the rewards that are at most 5-10% better than the lowest level 20 areas. The only thing that significantly increases in price are trade items yet the difficulty is MUCH greater. In a group of eight, you will make pretty much the same in Kourna as you do in the Gate of Pain. Loot scaling hurts the solo or small team farmer.

I too wish that they would up the quest/mission rewards some or lower the price of skills. I do not think that even doubling rewards (especially in places like the RoT) would cause much inflation if any at all - it doesn't make any high end player market items/materials more affordable but does the fixed costs items. Especially skills, when you hit the very last areas of the three games it is not uncommon to need to purchase a new build or two, if you have not been saving up (for instance, if it is your first time through there is no reason to know this is coming up) this can be hard to do.

DivineEnvoy · Aug 09, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

reetkever:
I understand your view. I used to farm trolls as well, and I guess it was the only solo-farming I have ever done. The old days were good, a small amount of time invested, and there will be enough money to invest on items we want.

I can understand how your income has reduced. The problem is, troll farm was nerfed long ago. Not by loot scaling, but by an A.I change. The trolls would have scattered away after 20 seconds or even 10 seconds as you approach them. It would've taken 2 times, 3 times, or even 5 times amount of time to actually farm them. In that situation, our income has reduced while the cost of our items remain the same.

A while after, loot scaling has been introduced along with Hard Mode. This allows the old timers to enjoy their farmings again. However, the drops have been reduced, and thus our income has remained reduced. Relevantly, the cost of our items have decreased as well. Perhaps not all the items, but there are significant reductions to be observed.

I can understand how you want to invest your money on the items you were capable of invest before. However, you need to know that there are things that will remain in the past. Also, the new system of Guild Wars does not only apply to you; it applies to all of us. Have you ever questioned, how come no one else has the same affection as you? Is it all because of "luck"?

P.S: Don't use "Casual Player" as a reason to your arguement.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange." -Full Metal Alchemist

Keithark · Nov 13, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

reetkever:

A while after, loot scaling has been introduced along with Hard Mode. This allows the old timers to enjoy their farmings again. However, the drops have been reduced, and thus our income has remained reduced. Relevantly, the cost of our items have decreased as well. Perhaps not all the items, but there are significant reductions to be observed.

Cost of what items? Did 15k armor go down to 2k armor to match us going to 1/8th the loot we were getting? Did cap sigs go down to 125 gold? Did skills go to 125 gold? How about materials? OK they went down...ecto went from 11k to 6k but that is far from the 1/8th that my loot went down. please revert loot scale a-net.

Crom The Pale · Nov 13, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Loot scalling was put inplace as an economic check against farming.

It is working and people are still getting rare drops and building up vast sums of money.

The time it takes to farm money has increased, but the cost of almost everything has also decreased.

As far as I know there is no set limit on the number of rare drops in GW as a whole, that means that since the very first Crystaline Sword drop some 30+ months ago the number of Crystaline Swords has steadily increased, with a very very very small number being lost to salvage or sold to merchants by those not familiar with what they had. That has caused the price of these items to fall, though the number of 'Perfect' Crystalines is still rather small the skin in general has moved from the rare catagory into the uncomon.

The same can be said for almost every item in GW, ecto and crafting materials included.

Aside from a very short list of exceptions, solo UW/Droks Forge runs/ect, time has always been a factor in making money. It does not come quickly and you have to keep your spending to an absolute minamum.

pumpkin pie · Nov 13, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alas Poor Yorick

I know a lot of you are saying you are making more money than ever from loot scaling. Try playing strictly in normal mode and then tell me how much you made!

36k approximately (cos i forgot how much i had to begin with) 18 hours give or take in normal mode (i could be wrong but its an approximately), in party of 8 (4 henchs 3 heros) I was remembering the time it says you have been playing 6 hours when i log out, in the last 2 sorry 3 days,during those 6 hours half the time I was afk. I don't buy keys of picks and there were around 5 gold weapon drops , unfortunately one of them is a composite short gold bow non-max mod that drop from the murakai chest O.o come on lady murakai chest...

this bow to be exact, I ID the thing, has a +29 hp

makosi · Nov 13, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I think it's a complete failure if it was added to deter bots. Bergen Bot Springs is loaded with bots who must be earning well otherwise their controller wouldn't bother using them. We all know that gold-selling sites still operate and that people do use them so has loot-scaling actually changed anything? The only thing affected is the casual player's income whilst playing normally through missions and questing.

There's no point in casting up another tread about bots because Anet's decision to apply loot-scaling must mean that they can no longer be bothered seeking out bots and banning them or they do not want to use time and resources doing so.

I've seen the same spambots in Kamadan selling 7 unidentified rares for 4.5k for months. They're selling the Dead Bows from Bergen to feed people's excessive grind-titles [another poor decision] and are not being dealt with.

Is it now acceptable to use bots?

upier · Nov 13, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The time it takes to farm money has increased, but the cost of almost everything has also decreased.

Except for the most important thing - skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

36k approximately (cos i forgot how much i had to begin with) 18 hours give or take in normal mode (i could be wrong but its an approximately), in party of 8 (4 henchs 3 heros) I was remembering the time it says you have been playing 6 hours when i log out, in the last 2 sorry 3 days,during those 6 hours half the time I was afk. I don't buy keys of picks and there were around 5 gold weapon drops , unfortunately one of them is a composite short gold bow non-max mod that drop from the murakai chest O.o come on lady murakai chest...

Just so that we don't the the wrong impression:

(the boy is lvl 16 - at the desert)
Everything that can be borrowed - runes, insignias, weapons is from my older chars. He is using salvage/id kits of my older characters (that are bought with the help of the monastery thingies you get for completing quests - they are passed on by my older character).
Armour was bought (with the help of) my storage money and storage materials. He only bought Ascalon armour - then waited till Kaineng to get himself some new clothes.
Running around with a full party team.
No skills were bought.
Merch everything - unless it can be salvaged into materials which are then merched.
No free chest visits yet.

pumpkin pie · Nov 13, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

where were you at upier? i want to avoid that place. but for your info, Hard mode wasn't kind to me when I solo farm using the very nice ele build. I can't find that thread. but ewe!

normal mode questing and collecting loot is good, and that's what i have been doing except saturday and sunday I was skill capping with my survivor character - bleh, luckily still not dead yet.

mr_groovy · Nov 13, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

People can say the prices of items have dropped, but the prices of the elite armors are still at the same lvl as they ever were. I created a new char in pre-sear, and even there was Lootscaling WTF? (I wasn't there to farm, but crouding a party and taking it down with firestorm, only to find out none of them drop anything is a bit dissapointing).

The nerfbat is reigning much to hard @ Anet. Lootscaling, 40 armor lvl cap, aoe not dropping anything. They say you can play the game how you want to, but in reality they just want you to grind for titles and that's it.

upier · Nov 13, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

where were you at upier? i want to avoid that place. but for your info, Hard mode wasn't kind to me when I solo farm using the very nice ele build. I can't find that thread. but ewe!

normal mode questing and collecting loot is good, and that's what i have been doing except saturday and sunday I was skill capping with my survivor character - bleh, luckily still not dead yet.

That's Prophecies.

Seriously - that's my new character going from Pre to the Desert. Doing missions, quests along the way. Playing the game normally.
It best shows through this:

Fighting my way from ToA to Fishermans - I ended up with 4 white drops and some gold.
The only good thing is that I have a bunch of characters from my hardcore playing times and that they can visit the free chests to make some money.

Ctb · Nov 13, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

They say you can play the game how you want to, but in reality they just want you to grind for titles and that's it.

I'm unclear on how lootscaling is preventing you from effectively soloing...

DivineEnvoy · Nov 13, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Cost of what items? Did 15k armor go down to 2k armor to match us going to 1/8th the loot we were getting? Did cap sigs go down to 125 gold? Did skills go to 125 gold? How about materials? OK they went down...ecto went from 11k to 6k but that is far from the 1/8th that my loot went down. please revert loot scale a-net.

You shouldn't isolate the contents with a fixed cost as part of the issue of loot scaling. We all know, no matter what happens to the economy, they will remain the same cost. As for the record, ectos are not the only thing that has met a decrease in price. There are runes, dyes, and weapons that have also met a decrease in price. For example, superior vigor was once 60k a piece, now it's only 14k. Black dye was once 14k, now 6k. There were weapons that are over 100k+ectos, and now they are only 10k.

furanshisuko · Nov 13, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Except for the most important thing - skills.

Just so that we don't the the wrong impression:

(the boy is lvl 16 - at the desert)
Everything that can be borrowed - runes, insignias, weapons is from my older chars. He is using salvage/id kits of my older characters (that are bought with the help of the monastery thingies you get for completing quests - they are passed on by my older character).
Armour was bought (with the help of) my storage money and storage materials. He only bought Ascalon armour - then waited till Kaineng to get himself some new clothes.
Running around with a full party team.
No skills were bought.
Merch everything - unless it can be salvaged into materials which are then merched.
No free chest visits yet.

lol 17 hours ! i can lvl up to 20 in 6 hours max armour and weapons :P

Dev121 · Nov 13, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

I'm unclear on how lootscaling is preventing you from effectively soloing...

In saying ' preventing soloing ' it doesnt, but if you said ' prevented you from get as good rewards as before ' then that would be correct.
If your outside a town killing stuff on your own you still not see as many non-cash/quest item drops, so if your on your own or if your with a party of 8 your meant to get the same amount of reward-> Good theory but doesnt work.

Basically its highley unlikely it will be changed, buy a time machine and play the game 2 years ago when gold was soooo easy to get but noone thought about getting it

. If not suck it up and realise you dont need 15k armor or fow armor and just play the game to do what you enjoy, if you enjoy solo farming fine they havent stopped you from doing that.

I personnaly would like it to get changed back but it wont affect me too much, it will affect the 99% player population that are all bots (ok exageratted but you get the idea).

Dev121 · Nov 13, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by furanshisuko

lol 17 hours ! i can lvl up to 20 in 6 hours max armour and weapons :P

WOW, thats not the point hes making. Read the post first (PS it can be done in 3 hours or less probably so dont try to brag about stuff that doesnt matter).

Loviatar · Nov 13, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Cost of what items? Did 15k armor go down to 2k armor to match us going to 1/8th the loot we were getting? Did cap sigs go down to 125 gold? Did skills go to 125 gold? How about materials? OK they went down...ecto went from 11k to 6k but that is far from the 1/8th that my loot went down. please revert loot scale a-net.

get a grip on reality son.

unless you think there is a great big conspiracy the lead programmers/devs have posted the facts.

1. it is a sliding scale so that ON AVERAGE a single person will still get 2 X the full 1/8 party share by yourself.

that is 1/4 of the gold/common stuff not your whiney wrong 1/8 you keep tossing out.

EXEMPTIONS OF ALL THE HIGH VALUE DROPS SO YOU GET 8/8 OF THE BEST STUFF

2. COST OF ITEMS

you were not here early enough to have the cost of runes equal or exceed the cost of that armor.

superior absorb .........100 K
superior vigor............75 K
minor runes 5 K to 15 K depending

now they are 100 G to at most a few k except for the sup vigor which was a budget busting 12 k when i checked last

BALANCE YOUR RUNE SAVINGS INTO THAT COST AND SUDDENLY THAT 15K IS A GENUINE BARGAIN

sigils for your hall at least 70 K and up depending on demand

the skills are not i have to pokemon have them all and i mean now as they can be gotten as you actually need one